Abortion

[ShaiNeko]

Abortion

This topic is for discussion and debate about abortion. As this is an extremely sensitive subject for many people there are a few things that must be noted before the discussion is allowed to begin.

• *Disagreement is allowed. If someone is pro-choice, respect their opinion. If someone is pro-life, respect their opinion. Continued fighting can and will lead to warnings being issued. If the fighting continues after that, banishment from the HoS is a possibility.
  
  *If there is a problem, report the post and DO NOT REPLY TO IT. The mods will handle any rule breaking or flaming if it occurs.
  
  *Just because someone has the opposite viewpoint from you does not mean they are causing a problem. Everyone is expected to listen and to understand that everyone will not agree on this topic.
  
  *You are not here to convince someone to change their mind.

What does abortion mean to you?
Are you pro-choice? Pro-life?
If so, why? What has influenced your decision?

If you are pro-choice: Are there any circumstances in which you believe abortion is wrong or should not be allowed? What is your opinion on late term abortion? Do you believe abortion is too common? If so, why and what do you think should be done to lower the number of abortions performed? Should the father have a say in the procedure? Should minors be allowed abortions without parental notification or consent?

If you are pro-life: Are there any circumstances in which you believe abortion is okay? What do you think should be done in cases where the mother is in danger/has a high probability of death if the pregnancy continues? Or if the potential baby will be born severely disabled or may not survive the pregnancy? What about rape?


For both: What do you think of adoption as an alternative? The use of birth control to prevent pregnancy in the first place? Is enough being done to reduce the number of abortions performed?

[BradTheMad]

What does abortion mean to you?
It is a complicated issue that's for sure!

Are you pro-choice? Pro-life?
In-between, it is hard to explain.
I do believe that abortion should be allowed in certain circumstances like if the mother's life is in danger or the child would be born in such a way that life is as good as a living hell for him/her. Mostly medical so physically related reasons though in the case of sexual assault I can also imagine the woman would not want to keep the child. I think in this case it is just as important for the child, imagine being told you were the result of rape...

Abortion because of financial reasons or because of accidental pregnancies really annoy me. I am sorry for those who disagree because of real-life experience, G-d forbid, but that's how I feel.
I always feel that if you do not want to get pregnant or could not take care of a child you should take every precaution to prevent getting pregnant in the first place. There are so many people like me unable to have children and to see that some couples get an abortion not once but even twice because they "forgot a condom" or whatever excuse is in my opinion downright horrible. I'd rather they put the child up for adoption.
For some abortion is just an easy way out which speaks volumes about their ethics. Abortion isn't something you just plan between doing groceries and watching tv at home.

The biggest issue is the complete lack of sexual education. People are way too prudish in a society where sex is literally everywhere to be found. It is funny how "free" we think we are yet many sexual things are still taboo, you can do it, see it on tv but you better not talk about it! The huge number of teenage pregnancies speaks volumes.

As for who decides about the abortion I think it is a combination of both the father and mother with the mother having the biggest influence as it is her who must carry the burdens the most both physically and emotionally. A father must never be able to let her wife get an abortion if she has doubts but there's also something to be said for the exact reverse.
I have seen somebody I will not name who got into a relationship with a woman who got pregnant and he was over the top happy. She wasn't and got an abortion and the to this day the guy is a wreck.
The best answer is seeing a professional therapist and working it out together, this isn't something that should be decided by one person and a neutral third party would be great.


If so, why? What has influenced your decision?
Jewish religious laws(halachah)and personal experience within my family and circle of friends. Abortion is not an easy choice and should never be one.

The strict halachic interpretation is the following(I can imagine others wanting to pipe in what their religions say and I think a comparison would be helped if we know what is said precisely):
- The fetus isn't even seen as a living being in the first forty days it is referred to as a "fluid" with the potential of life.
- Right up until birth the baby isn't his or her own person but literally part of the mother.
For as long as it did not come out into the world, it is not called a living thing and it is permissible to take its life in order to save its mother. Once the head has come forth, it may not be harmed because it is considered born, and one life may not be taken to save another. - Rashi
- Up until birth the life and mental well-being of the mother is always put before the child.
- Abortion may only be done for medical reasons or in cases of severe mental anguish that is caused to the mother(think of rape here and not because "mom is ticked off").
If a woman has (life-threatening) difficulty in childbirth, one dismembers the embryo within her, limb by limb, because her life takes precedence over its life. However, once its head (or its 'greater part') has emerged, it may not be touched, for we do not set aside one life for another - Ohalot 7:6
- Abortion is never done as an easy way out which is a serious transgression and considered exactly the same as murder.
Whoever destroys one life is as if he destroyed a whole world, and whoever preserves a life is as if he preserved the whole world. - Sanhedrin 4:5

[crazyflight]

What does abortion mean to you?
Well, I'm young and not really involved with abortion and that kind of stuff yet. However, it comes up so often in today's society that it's hard to ignore.

Are you pro-choice? Pro-life?
I'm not quite sure what I am, exactly. By what my ideas are, I would be considered pro-choice, but I'm not sure if that's entirely where I'm at. For example, if a fifteen-year-old girl is raped and impregnated, abortion is not only okay, it would seem like the only option, if she wants to continue with her school and social life. Or if the condom breaks, or whatever the scenario is where the people didn't want a child. And it's probably better for an unwanted child to not be brought into the world, just to be put up for adoption or abused or abandoned. The world is already overpopulated, and without any abortions, it would be worse.

If people don't want a child but still perform sexual intercourse, so be it. I think abortion is perfectly okay in this scenario. A lot of people disagree on me with this, but I think that since the baby was never born, they could be aborted. They would have never lived, so it wouldn't have been murder, or death. You can't die without ever living. And if a sex-crazed teenager suddenly becomes pregnant, she's within her rights to get an abortion. It's her choice entirely, and if she wants to abort it, that's fine. Having sex without a condom and getting pregnant would just be a waste of money and time, for what, a tiny bit more pleasure?

I think that it is almost entirely the woman's choice whether or not to get an abortion. The man who impregnated her could have some say in whether or not they'd like to keep the baby or put it up for adoption or whatever, but it's mainly the woman who suffers. However, if they have very conflicting opinions, then they should go to therapy or something to work it out.

If so, why? What has influenced your decision?

Well, it is kind of silly to say this, but Madeleine L'Engle had a small influence in my decision. In one of her books, there was a quote that I can't quite remember nor find. But it explained that there cannot be death if there was never life. If a fetus is never born, then it cannot die. Although I'm young and a thirteen-year-old boy, I don't see why anyone would question abortion after being raped. I can see why a promiscuous teenager who gets pregnant would cause a problem.

[MightyOak]

What does abortion mean to you? To me abortion simply means a planned termination of a pregnancy.

Are you pro-choice? Pro-life? I am pro-choice.

If so, why? What has influenced your decision? This is a rather simple answer for me, actually. It is a very difficult and controversial topic in the United States, but I am European. Culturally, this is a closed topic. We are pro-choice, end of subject. This means that if a person does not wish to abort a fetus (is pro-life), even at the risk of their own life, they have the right to make that choice, that's what choice is all about, after all. That the debate still exists in the States is somewhat disturbing and definitely perplexing.

Are there any circumstances in which you believe abortion is wrong or should not be allowed? Right and wrong are ambiguous concepts. I would think it is wrong to abort a pregnancy if it was done out of malice towards the fetus. But who is to judge the heart of someone? And judge if it is malice towards the fetus or frustration and hurt over the situation? But I believe that if there are situations where it would not be allowed, that they should be few and far between, just as abortions themselves should be few and far between. In this day and age, with contraception easily available, abortion should be a non-issue.

What is your opinion on late term abortion? I do not really have one. I can see many reasons why a woman may not have been able to get one earlier and how she might find out late that there was a major defect to the fetus. On the other hand, if the fetus is viable outside the mother and no longer needs her for survival, then I perhaps question the woman's intent. I leave this statement as vague and ambiguous as my thoughts on the subject.

Do you believe abortion is too common? No and in the case of the United States, there is not enough abortion. I mean to say that there are women who need and/or want this service and simple have no access. What happens to then? Do these women endanger their lives by trying to do it themselves?

Should the father have a say in the procedure? I have had such discussions with men. Some have told me that if the woman didn't want the child, that they would be happy to take it. Because of this, I have thought that first a woman might ask the father his wishes, if she knows who he is or if she is considering adoption anyways. The risk of requiring the father's permission first, though, becomes a case of "yes, of course I want the child" and then him not taking it, which leaves the woman with a child to raise when she'd had no plan or preparation to do so.

Should minors be allowed abortions without parental notification or consent? Absolutely. A child being forced to carry to term due to lack of parental consent might be considered child abuse. There are many parents that simply would not give consent, I think.

What do you think of adoption as an alternative? I think this is a wonderful and valuable alternative. There are different kinds of adoptions that can suit a woman's needs. She can choose who will raise the child or not as she wishes. There are always people hoping to adopt a baby.

The use of birth control to prevent pregnancy in the first place? For me this is simply a basic responsibility. You want to have sex? Get some sort of contraception. Heck, even if you don't want to have sex you should have some, just in case!

Is enough being done to reduce the number of abortions performed? From what I understand in the States, no. In schools, programs of abstinence are taught, rather than contraception and all studies show that abstinence teaching doesn't work. Plus, making it hard to get access to contraception won't make sex less frequent, just more dangerous. Both from disease and pregnancy. If you want lower abortion rates, you need people who are better educated and better equipped, which means teaching about sex and contraception.

[Niverdia]

What am I even doing in this thin-ice topic. What am I thinking.

What does abortion mean to you? Planned termination of pregnancy.

Are you pro-choice? Pro-life? I am pro-choice, and so is the official stance in my country, although there are the occasional discussions about how maybe it should be outlawed because of the low birth rates. As far as I know, it is considered unethical to forbid people from breeding, so why should it be otherwise for choosing to NOT propagate?

If so, why? What has influenced your decision? A lot of things, partly just growing up and understanding how I would feel about the possibility of having children (I don't want to have them and would be utterly horrified if someone forced me to have them); partly stories from other people surrounding these decisions or being denied them, how it has influenced them or someone they knew; partly general ethical musings, if this makes sense.

Are there any circumstances in which you believe abortion is wrong or should not be allowed? This is kind-of a difficult question, however, I tend to think that if you're pro-choice, and the outcome is the same - a woman goes to the clinic with a fetus and comes out of it without it - it's kind-of arbitrary to draw a line between "you can/can't have an abortion because of [insert reasons]". The only thing that would pop in my mind right now would be when a spouse/partner would force a woman to have an abortion as means of manipulating relationships, when there aren't any financial or health reasons due to which it would be preferable to abstain from childbirth. In fact, if there were such issues with the potential parents not being able to take care of the potential child or not wanting to have one, I might even be more pro-abortion, because, afaik, the adoption system, at least in the United States, is horribly broken. And like in that quote, if there hasn't been a life, there can't be a death. In my opinion, an unborn fetus doesn't suffer because it doesn't know what it would be missing and, on the other hand, it also wouldn't know the unhappiness of being an unwanted/unloved child. And, call me silly, the potential unhappiness is an important factor for me.

As for health reasons, I tend to value an existing life over a potential life, but, like I said earlier, this is one of those tricky topics where you can't really make a legislation about who may do what, because of ethical reasons.


What is your opinion on late term abortion? Ambiguous about this one. For health-reasons, I'd definitely support it. I'm ambiguous about the change of heart so late into the pregnancy, though. Given what I've written above, my position should be supportive, but I guess that when it comes to late-term pregnancy, there is already a major "squick" factor involved.

Do you believe abortion is too common? No.

Should the father have a say in the procedure? I believe that men should have SOME say, but given that the major burden of childraising often falls on women, not to mention the strains of pregnancy and childbirth, women should still have a bigger say in this.

I was recently informed that "men shouldn't have any say, because they'll never be pregnant" is a hidden argument ad hominem, so I might have to be careful with this position, hahaha.

Should minors be allowed abortions without parental notification or consent? Yes.


...
I should warn that I may not post in this topic afterwards, because my position on some of the questions is kind-of sensitive and I might get unnecessarily emotional. :u

[Tekla]

What does abortion mean to you?

Ending a pregnancy.

Are you pro-choice? Pro-life?

I am pro-choice.

If so, why? What has influenced your decision?

Growing up and being exposed to both sides of the issue. I used to be pro-life but as I grew up and started reading up on things like pregnancy, abortion, and even adoption I started realizing that I didn't like children very much and where I'm headed in my school and career, I won't have time for pregnancy. A lot of people might say that's selfish of me but I do not want a baby when I'm still younger and not established in a career. If I want a child I want to be able to take care of it adequately and as I realized this, I knew if got pregnant I would have an abortion too. In general I identify more with the pro-choice side of the issue; and I've heard various stories about how bad pregnancy and adoption can be, which has just made me even more pro-choice.

I don't want preposterous old men making laws as to how I can or cannot control what the hell happens in my uterus.

Are there any circumstances in which you believe abortion is wrong or should not be allowed?

Yes. I don't think late term abortions should be allowed except in cases of medical necessity, either on the mother's part or the fetus'/baby's part.

What is your opinion on late term abortion?

See the previous question ~

Do you believe abortion is too common? If so, why and what do you think should be done to lower the number of abortions performed?

I don't believe it's too common but sometimes I think it's too...out in the open, I guess. Honestly, abortion should be between a woman and her doctor.

Should the father have a say in the procedure?

If the couple is actually together and the father isn't going to run out on you, yes. I don't think it's fair that the father have a say if he's not going to stick around and help take care of it.

Should minors be allowed abortions without parental notification or consent?

Yes. It's better that they be allowed to get an abortion than be forced to carry to term a fetus/baby that will be neither wanted nor loved. That's just straight up cruel as far as I'm concerned.

What do you think of adoption as an alternative?

The adoption system in the US is broken. So few kids actually end up getting adopted into a good family and I can't comprehend how an unadopted child feels when it knows it isn't wanted by anyone. That upsets me. And from stories I've heard the suicide rate of adopted (or as-yet-unadopted) children is ridiculously high.

The use of birth control to prevent pregnancy in the first place?

YES. Christ on a cracker, it cannot be said enough times that parents and schools fail across the board in educating their children on sex, its consequences, and "if you want to do it, here's how to not get pregnant and not get a disease." I hate that sex is still such a taboo topic in the US.

US parents and schools should face it already - people will do the deed anyway and abstinence should be taught in conjunction with the other options kids/teens have. Most of my own sex ed class in school was DON'T HAVE SEX OR YOU'LL GET DISEASES AND DIE. I would have been happier if I'd been taught about all my options - I had to learn about the Pill and other birth control from my mother/elsewhere.

I feel that it's better than kids/teens learn this stuff from parents and other reputable adults. If they don't learn it there, that's where the internet comes in and we all know how reliable the internet can be. e_e

Is enough being done to reduce the number of abortions performed?

No. We (the US in general) need to start making the options of birth control more widely available and easy to get and people need to realize that sex doesn't need to be such a taboo topic. People do it all the time.

That the debate still exists in the States is somewhat disturbing and definitely perplexing.

Such truth you speak. I don't understand why this debate is still going on, either. I may be pro-choice but I still believe that an abortion belongs between a woman and her doctor and where applicable, the father, but it should still be a private matter.

[Synchronized]

What does abortion mean to you?
Exactly what it says on the tin. To end something; in this case, a pregnancy.

Are you pro-choice? Pro-life?
Choice.

If so, why? What has influenced your decision?
I don't want nuts policing my body or shaming me for being a "slut" because I "opened my legs" or my birth control didn't work, or the condom broke, or a condom wasn't used, etc. And I don't want anybody else to have to go through that bullshit either.

Are there any circumstances in which you believe abortion is wrong or should not be allowed?
No.

What is your opinion on late term abortion?
If it has to happen, that's none of my business. The majority of the time, in these cases, it is not going to be what anti-choicers consider "arbitrary" reasons(not enough money to support, birth control not working, inconvenience, etc), and will likely be purely medical and a danger to the mother, fetus, or both. Either way, it's none of my business, nor is it anybody else's.

Do you believe abortion is too common?
It's not common enough, especially in the southern/south-western United States.

Should the father have a say in the procedure?
That's the mother's choice.

Should minors be allowed abortions without parental notification or consent?
Yes.

What do you think of adoption as an alternative?
A horrible alternative, and a means to guilt-trip someone who does not truly want their child into keeping it. Pregnancy changes a woman's life, even if she gets rid of the baby afterwords. The emotional, mental, and physical scars will still be there-- that, and taking an infant from a woman who shaped nine months around carrying it and caring for it regardless of whether or not she wanted to is extremely stressful and likely emotionally painful on the woman giving up the child.

The use of birth control to prevent pregnancy in the first place?
Very good, if used properly, as well as some aid in preventing STDs.

Is enough being done to reduce the number of abortions performed?
By rejecting abortions, safe-sex practices, and sexual education, the number of abortions will only continue to remain where it is or climb higher. Of course, if it's made illegal, the number of legally obtained abortions will obviously drop. The number of illegally obtained, dangerous abortions, however, will rise dramatically-- but unless someone confesses to having an abortion, dies from complications, or is admitting to a hospital from complications, chances are we'll never know exact numbers. Though with complications and death/illness from illegal abortions going to be extremely common, because there are few ways to safely conduct an abortion without medical experts and properly sterilized tools, we can probably make a good estimate.


I have a question for the anti-choicers, if they hop in here: If abortion was made illegal/considered murder of an infant, what do you propose be done about women who obtain an abortion against the law? If they are not sent to jail or fined extremely heavily, as others who murder are, why bother making it illegal?

[MistyoC]

Forgive me for not following form. My views on abortion are complicated. I believe that it should be legal to get and perform abortions in a medical setting. I do not agree with abortion being used as a form of birth control.
That said, I did have 2 abortions myself as a teen. When my mother found out I was pregnant the first time, she set up the appointment and basically told me I would do it or I was kicked out. The second time, I was engaged but still living with my mom. I figured we could go ahead and get married, but he was fine with me getting another abortion. I did so, feeling it was kinder than bringing into this world another child who was unwanted by the father. :-( I also broke off the engagement.
I think the best way to reduce the number of abortions is to provide better options. Preventing pregnancy in the first place is the best bet, but that takes planning and some people just aren't good at that. While a person does meet with girls before the procedure and ask if it's their choice, they quite easily take yes for an answer even when the girl wants to say no. There need to be more options for girls and women to get out of situations where they feel that abortion is the best or only choice.

[chihirolorc]

What does abortion mean to you? To terminate a pregnancy.


Are you pro-choice? Pro-life? I personally am against this differentiation of pro-life vs pro choice. In my opinion, just because you are pro-choice does not mean you are not pro-life. But, for the sake of the argument I will say that I am pro-choice.

If so, why? What has influenced your decision?

I apologize in advance if my comments are going to deeply offend someone, but I view a fetus at its point in life, still a ball of cells. (Especially earlier in the pregnancy when the abortion is still suggested and safe.) Yes, people may argue that they are still alive and sentient, but not in any way more than the cow most people eat. (Now, I'm not vegetarian and not going to start digressing to that subject.) For this reason, I think if the mother decides that she is not able to continue on or provide for the fetus as she sees fit, it is for the best to abort the fetus. I think that it is much more moral to end its life there than giving birth and constantly having remorse about not aborting or not being able to give the child proper care.

In addition, the truth is, if things don't happen legally, it most likely happens illegally. If people illegalize abortion, chances are it will still happen under cover. And that is much worse, because then most of the doctors performing the abortion are complete quacks with no qualification or ethics to even complete the procedure properly. Which ends up creating a much worse situation.

As for a wrong abortion and the fathers role, I think the abortion is never wrong, but should be thought out carefully. Even if there is pressure, whether from parents or from the partner, I think that it is ultimately the mothers choice and it should be illegal give her with ultimatums as it is illegal to give out serious threats. (Whether the parents want to be in support is however their decision.) I'm just against them saying something like, we are going to disown you. Because they aren't making the situation any better and trying to force someone to make a life changing decision.

The participation of the father really depends case by case and I can't give any general statements.

For minors, I think that they shouldn't be forced to disclose or obtain parental approval, since I think that in those cases, emotions start playing a big role and can cause irrational reactions and outcomes which isn't fair to anyone. However, I think it should be mandatory for all minors to have a session with a qualified physician exploring every other option its long term effects, pros and cons etc before the abortion. As such they can truly understand the extent of the reality they are facing or going to face.

As a general statement, I think that abortion should not be promoted but always be there as an option.

Adoption.
As an individual who was adopted, I have to say that outcomes of adoptions aren't as simple as most people believe. (Then again, you are only hearing one case.)

However, to this day (I'm 19) I do not regret being adopted whatsoever. I had lots of opportunities I would have never gotten and I am thankful, don't get me wrong on that.

I think that for mothers who end up drinking or having children with disabilities, (mostly non-physical.) my case has a particular relevance.

Me and my sister (elder) were both adopted, her nationally and me internationally. I live in Canada, and sadly, most adoptions made within the country are made because there were severe problem with the family and the government decides to take the child into their custody. Such was the case with my sister. Due to the circumstances with her mother; my sister ended up fetal alcohol syndrome. And because of that, (or at least what we believe) she was a very ruthless and abusive person. She could not tell the difference between right and wrong, as she would steal and physically and emotionally abuse the family, especially me since I was the youngest, for years . My father decided to not come back to the house until very late because of this, and my mom started drinking. Even though what she was doing was clearly illegal, she did not face any charges do to her condition. There were times that she did need leave the house, but was quickly released and always came back. (I'm not going to go into detail because that isn't the point of this forum.)

My point in this is, even though all children need homes and some people would argue that it is unethical to shun a child just because they have disabilities, there is the hard and cold reality. The fact that my mother adopted my sister broke my family to pieces. I still can't forgive her for what she did as I am still very resentful and suffering post traumatic stress, although slowly recovering. For some children I think it is best to not be integrated into families. So people shouldn't quickly substitute abortion with adoption always assuming that what they are doing is better.

[GrowlingCupcake]

What does abortion mean to you?

The termination of a pregnancy.

Are you pro-choice? Pro-life?

I am and have always been pro-choice.

Abortion should be available to any woman who wants one and for whatever reason. Whether she was raped or the condom broke or she didn't use birth control, etc. she should be able to have one. Similarly, if she wants to keep the baby, she should be allowed to. Abortion should not be forced on her. She should be given enough information about all possibilities (keeping it, adoption, abortion, etc.) and then decide what she wants to do. It is her body and her right to decide.

With late term abortion, I am personally fine with it as long as it is legal. I do believe they should've decided earlier but perhaps it's a birth defect that wasn't known until then. I do feel it should be legally allowed.

I'd definitely agree that sex education needs to be better. There are many, many forms of birth control and there's probably something that works for everyone out there. While I feel they still have the right to decide for themselves, I have little respect for people who use abortion as a form of birth control. If you're on birth control and it fails (since such things happen), I've got no issue with that. But repeatedly fucking up your birth control and needing multiple abortions? Something's wrong there.

Birth control needs to be easily available. Sex education in schools needs to be better. People need to know what is going on, how things happen, how to prevent things rather than just being told "Sex is bad, k."

Ultimately, the decision rests with the mother. It is her body. That said, if in a committed, real relationship, I believe that the father's feelings would be taken into account. I know if my birth control failed and I needed an abortion I would certainly take into account my partner's feelings.

I think that minors should be allowed abortions without parental consent or notice unless it happens repeatedly. Some parents are dickwads about such things. I also think that the age should be taken into account. If someone is 12 or something, that's probably not so good and parents need to be informed. Also, if it looks like it was rape or some kind of abuse, parents should be informed.

Adoption should be considered as an alternative. But again, if the woman doesn't want to be pregnant, it's up to her. I find the concept that adoption should be considered because other people cannot have children flawed. Just because someone else can't have a child doesn't mean someone who doesn't want to be pregnant should. I would gladly give my ability to have children (if I can. I might be barren) to someone else so they could have them but I'm not giving up my body and my emotional and mental state to someone just because they can't have kids. Pregnancy isn't easy. It's hell on the body and on the mind even for people who want kids. How much worse is it for those who don't?

Birth control needs to be used. It's important if you want to have sex and not get pregnant. There are a lot of available forms and if they're easily, readily available I do believe it would cut down on abortions. That said, birth control still fails; I spend my inactive week worrying about whether I am pregnant or not and it doesn't stop till I start my period.