Abortion

[MightyOak]

Though you are correct please keep in mind that not everybody is so "free" that they had these options. Some parents, and spouses for that matter, can be incredibly dominant and though they have no legal say in the matter they can force it upon somebody.

I know what you are trying to say but as this is a sensitive topic things might come across more harshly than they are intended.

Agreed. I did try (apparently with less success than was hoped for ) to moderate the tone of my words. I edited several times before posting. I object to the phrase "against my will" as it may very well blur the issue and frighten those that simply do not know what their rights are or aren't in this area. People should be aware that no one can perform an abortion on a person without their consent, however grudgingly that consent is given, and my feelings may have bled through despite my editing. I also object to a mother presenting such a choice to her daughter and putting her in that sort of position instead of helping her both before and after. I will try to be more cautious and clarify further in the future as it is certainly not my intent to come across as harsh. I am aware of the sensitivity of this topic in the United States, but perhaps not as aware as I should be. I will try to do better in the future and I apologize if my words have caused anyone ill feelings, as that was certainly not my intent.

[MistyoC]

Agreed. I did try (apparently with less success than was hoped for ) to moderate the tone of my words. I edited several times before posting. I object to the phrase "against my will" as it may very well blur the issue and frighten those that simply do not know what their rights are or aren't in this area. People should be aware that no one can perform an abortion on a person without their consent, however grudgingly that consent is given, and my feelings may have bled through despite my editing. I also object to a mother presenting such a choice to her daughter and putting her in that sort of position instead of helping her both before and after. I will try to be more cautious and clarify further in the future as it is certainly not my intent to come across as harsh. I am aware of the sensitivity of this topic in the United States, but perhaps not as aware as I should be. I will try to do better in the future and I apologize if my words have caused anyone ill feelings, as that was certainly not my intent.

True "against my will" is not entirely accurate. I do understand what you mean and I technically did have a choice. The other choice would have left me homeless and alone. I knew nothing at the time of any help I could get. The choices seemed to be abortion or the streets and the streets of Washington, DC are not a safe place for a teen girl to be. I was already an alcoholic and popping any pills I could get my hands on. It didn't seem like a viable choice. I did clean up soon after and I've been sober now for 25 years.
The second time, I was engaged to be married and thought that we could just move up the wedding. When my fiancee was all for my having an abortion, it crushed me. I felt again that I had nowhere to turn and I went along with it, but broke the engagement. I could never have trusted him again.

[GrowlingCupcake]

"The kid goes or you do" was exactly how my mother reacted. That is why I wound up having 2 abortions against my will. She also would not allow me to get birth control, despite being obviously sexually active. Condoms do break, especially when inexperienced partners forget to leave room at the tip.

In the United States and any other western country that I know of it is illegal to force anyone to have an abortion. It is simply not legally possible. "the kid goes or you do" is a choice that was presented to you by your mother. You made a choice and could have chosen differently. Being put in the position of having to make a choice with such consequences is always hard, no matter the subject, but it was a choice. I might also add that your mother had no control over your access to birth control. (I'm assuming you're in the US, here) You could have gone to any Planned Parenthood to get birth control and you could have gone without a parent. Also, you could have purchased condoms in any drug store.

I had a friend in high school who was presented with the same choice and she chose to leave and carry her pregnancy to term. Her mother had found her condom stash and taken it from her, since she didn't approve of sex. My friend had her first child at 14 years old.

Yes, condoms break, especially if you don't know what you're doing. That's why it's so important to have these lessons in school as part of sexual education.

Adding to this...

Sometimes, you simply cannot afford to not have the abortion and though you are making a choice, it's one of starve or live, more or less. A teenager may not always be able to. Hell, sometimes an adult can't. While the following is in Singapore, I'm sure parts of it can apply to other countries too.

My cousin needed to have an abortion because the condom broke. It was her first time and possibly the first time for her partner as well or one of the first few times. She wanted an abortion, partly because she still had her own life to live (she was not a teenager but still studying then) and partly because having the child would have meant her family leaving her. She had lost her mother when she was 9 and her remaining family was not something she was willing to lose. She didn't have anyone to turn to; to tell her family would've been to be beaten (pretty severely, probably) and ostracised; her father is a very traditional man in these things. I was pretty much the only one she could turn to. So while she wasn't forced into one, I'm more using this to explain how she would have had to have one regardless in order to keep her family and to survive.

In Singapore, you can't afford to live on your own unless you have a well paying job. Most people are in debt their whole lives just to afford a small apartment and that's not including food and living expenditures. There's no welfare, no government help for single parents or anything. Most people earn around 1-2k a month at a full time job, with a degree. A small apartment is well over 100k. Given she didn't have a degree, she wouldn't've been able to make anywhere close to enough.

While you can get condoms, you can't get other forms of contraception easily. I tried to get on birth control and they flat out refused. "Are you married?" was one of the first questions and was repeatedly brought up. It is not easy for a single female to get on birth control. I was also an adult and over 21. It's much harder for someone younger than that and they'll probably insist on parental consent.

So yes, while a person can make a choice, often the choice they want to entails... a life that would be entirely too miserable for them and their offspring.

[BradTheMad]

Agreed. I did try (apparently with less success than was hoped for ) to moderate the tone of my words. I edited several times before posting.

Hence no official warning but a reminder. I know what you meant but sometimes emotions can blur somebody's vision. Abortion is an incredibly sensitive topic, especially for those that have experience with it personally.

[sammythethief]

Should minors be allowed abortions without parental notification or consent?
If they're "mature enough" to make the decision to engage in sexual intercourse, then they're old enough to make that sort of decision. However, their parents should be informed.
I will also say that it's within a parents rights to kick out their daughter if she gets pregnant, or their son if he impregnates someone. If I have a daughter and she comes home one day and tells me that she's pregnant, I'd be hard pressed to allow her to stay there and raise a baby. Heartless? No. I would hope that I'd have raised her to be smarter than to allow herself to get pregnant, and I wouldn't want a baby in the house. At that point, I will be done raising kids and having kids in my house and won't want that anymore.

Please tell me that I'm reading this corretly and in case the kid would choose the responsible route, you wouldn't kick them out.
Because, you know, sometimes getting pregnant isn't a matter of incompetence and lack of foresight, and sometimes a mistake/accident can be corrected. I don't entirely see the mistake/accident per se to be a source of punishment, but dependent on how it's dealt with.

What is your thought process when you say "the responsible route"? Do you mean if the kid would get an abortion would I not kick them out.

Perhaps I am biased, though. Where I live, every other teenager is pregnant or has multiple children by multiple fathers and they're still in high school. I don't believe in that. I'm also very, very old fashioned in that I don't believe in children then marriage. I don't behave any differently toward people that choose that path, however - that's not my place.

You (note - general "you") can, I dunno, think all you want that young teenagers shouldn't have sex, but I think that you can't really stop a kid start having sex when they choose to (teaching abstinence and shaming only adds guilt to the act, but doesn't necessarily prevent it, as described by Darrel W. Ray in his book Sex and God: How Religion Distorts Sexuality, where among other things, he analyzed studies about average frequency and onset of sexual activity in more and less religious states and found no significant difference - there are likely other sources out there, but this is the first I can name off the top of my head :p). The one thing you definitely can do is to teach them to at least be responsible about it.

I don't think teenagers shouldn't have sex. I'm kind of ambivalent toward that - I don't care if they do or they don't. I was sixteen when I first had sex, so I certainly can't judge. But I was also on the pill (had been since I started my period, because it strung my hormones up four ways from Sunday and my flow was abnormally heavy) and we used condoms. I was taught abstinence, but my personal belief was that if you care very deeply for someone, you shouldn't be afraid to have sex with them. We had mandatory Sexual Health classes from sixth grade up, until I graduated, so we were taught responsibility in school (and I was taught it at home).

Even so, technical accidents (because no contraception is completely fool-proof) happen, hence why I bolded the "allow", because the wording bothers me.

That was stupid wording on my behalf, I admit. You only allow yourself to get pregnant when you want to get pregnant.

Now, knowing you on FB as well, Red, I know where you're coming from but, being from a slightly different community, I can promise you, a great many people aren't like that and do put in some thought in how they go about having sex. Out of all the people in my extended circle, I know only one person who had gotten pregnant as a teenager, while being in a relationship and due to contraception failure around the beginning of her senior high school year. She had the child and she went to study to vet school immediately after graduating.

ETA: Come to think of it, that was essentially my parents' attitude when I was younger, "you can go out and have sex, but if you get pregnant, either the kid goes or you go".

... it's not like I want kids of my own anyway, so no hard decisions there.

It's truly obscene the number of teenagers that got pregnant in my high school and have gone on to have more and work at McDonald's. If that's what they want to do with their lives and they're happy with that decision, then I do not judge them and I am happy that they're happy. But what bothers me the most is when I read about these girls that have two and three children (they're my age) and they complain that they never got to travel, they don't get to go out, they don't have any money.

So many girls in my graduating class have children now - and not all of them even know who the father is. Makes me want to move away to a mountain and never return

[KorrianaVeil]

What does abortion mean to you?
Termination of pregnancy

Are you pro-choice? Pro-life?
Pro-choice

If so, why? What has influenced your decision?
I don't believe anyone but the woman in question should have any business deciding whether to get an abortion or not (of course, the father-to-be should have the option to voice his opinion, but I'll get to that later). I honestly don't understand why, here in the USA, people think they have the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body.

How would you like it if someone told you that you couldn't paint your nails, cut your hair, get a tattoo, etc? You would tell them, "Hey. It's my body. I have to live with what I do to it. You don't. Piss off." While abortion is, obviously, a much more serious subject than hair or nails, it's the same basic principal. I respect those with different preferences and beliefs, but I don't respect those that push their beliefs onto other people and try to have laws made and debates over it. It's wonderful you feel this way, really. But it's not your business what someone else does in their life. It's not affecting you in ANY way. At all. So go do something productive and not mean.

My decision was extremely influenced by my life growing up. I was raped at 15 by an abusive boy I had dated and broke up with. Mom and I moved across town. No one knew where I lived anymore. He stalked me and broke into my house while my mom was at work one day. I got pregnant. My mom basically told me, "I don't believe you were raped. Get rid of it or get out." Being 15, I had no where to go. Part of me wanted to keep the fetus (my Christian upbringing, I suppose, which I quickly abandoned after this) but part of me (logic) told me to just get rid of it. I would never be able to take care of myself AND a child at 15, being homeless and jobless. I was only in high school. So I agreed and let it happen. It wasn't "against my choice" and it wasn't "forced" on me in the traditional, "YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS YOU'RE DOING IT I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY" way, but I still consider the choice being forced on me in the sense that it was either do what my mom said or be homeless. That's not much of a fair choice to give someone. Especially when they've just been raped and you're telling them you don't care/don't believe them. It was traumatic enough without that thrown on top.

Are there any circumstances in which you believe abortion is wrong or should not be allowed?
When a woman has not consented to it or if it's far into the pregnancy. You should not be considering abortion around 5 or 6 months. That was a decision to be made much earlier. At this point, the fetus can be taken out of you and possibly survive with a lot of medical help.

What is your opinion on late term abortion?
See above. If the fetus has progressed to the point of being able to survive without the mother, then that's not even abortion to me. That's just an early labor. The choice after that is likely obvious. The mother will still not want it.

Do you believe abortion is too common?
Not nearly common enough. I'm sure there are women that may need abortions for medical or financial reasons, but are afraid to because it's 'taboo'. Look, if you cannot afford yourself, what makes you think you can provide for a child? You probably can't. It's not fair to you or to the child to suffer when there are many other options. You should not let other people bully you into keeping something you don't want or can't take care of.

Should the father have a say in the procedure?
Absolutely. It takes two to tango. It should be talked about in a very civil and calm manner. Ultimately, the woman should make her own decision, but she certainly should NOT tell her partner/father of the child that it's NONE OF HIS BUSINESS. Quite frankly, his offspring is his business and you should at least LISTEN to him. You don't have to do what he says, but you should at least talk it over like adults or at least mature people for whatever age you are.

Should minors be allowed abortions without parental notification or consent?
The parents should be made aware during a verbal conversation with the minor, if the minor chooses to speak of of it. Minors should not be afraid to talk to their parents. In my high school, I found that many pregnancies in teens were caused because teens were NOT talking to their parents. They never told their parents they were sexually active, girls weren't getting their well-women check ups, they weren't asking questions about being safe, they weren't asking for help getting birth control or condoms, etc. Parents these days are more willing to talk about things and help their teens be safe. I've seen many parents with their teens, showing them how to purchase condoms, set up yearly well women exams, get the pill, the patch, plan B, etc. I truly wish all parents were this way. Teaching your offspring about being responsible is the best way to avoid them having offspring before they are ready.

What do you think of adoption as an alternative?
It can be. It just depends. It just seems cruel, to me, for someone to bring a child into the world, say "I don't want it," toss it into an orphanage, and have other people possibly say, "Oh. That one is sick. That one doesn't look like myself/my partner. That one is too old. That one is too young. Too skinny. Too fat. That one is this or that. I don't want it," until finally they are adopted (hopefully by a good family and not an abusive one) or turn old enough to be kicked out to live on their own. There are some crazy horror stories about kids in the system. They don't always go to the "perfect" family. There are still people out there who want kids, adopt them, and then still abuse them.

The use of birth control to prevent pregnancy in the first place?
I believe birth control should be made widely available and cheap--so that women are more willing to be safe. I got quotes for getting an IUD... $600-$800 for the procedure. Guess who couldn't afford that and didn't get it. This woman right here. My rent is only $570. That costs more than my rent. That's just crazy. And I don't have insurance, so I could not do that. My birth control option is the pill and is $30 a month (plus condoms). And that $30-$50 is coming out of my food budget because, for whatever reason, my damn light bill is $500 a month. If it weren't for that, I'd be perfectly fine and have money left over each month to save. My hubby and I eat less during the month to make sure I don't get pregnant again. I almost don't want to take the pill so I can actually eat. But we don't want another child at this point. And we're not going to abstain from sex. It's one of our stress relievers and one of our bonding experiences. Having been raped, I am very emotional about sex. After being married a year and being with this same man for a year and a half, I still get extremely nervous. I still have flashbacks. Sometimes our night starts great and ends in me in tears, clinging to him, while hubby tries to calm me down and apologizes even though he has done nothing wrong.

[Niverdia]

I linked to this earlier on the DC forum, "I Wish My Mother Had Aborted Me", a very honest and moving article about the necessity for keeping the choice to abort open.
.....
Anyway.

What is your thought process when you say "the responsible route"? Do you mean if the kid would get an abortion would I not kick them out.

Yep, this is exactly what I wonder about, because I do think that if you (general "you") can't financially and/or emotionally care for a child, then it's better/more responsible to not have it.
And hence why I don't view becoming pregnant as an irreversible mistake/accident.

Perhaps I am biased, though. Where I live, every other teenager is pregnant or has multiple children by multiple fathers and they're still in high school.

Yeah, it's like you say - you are biased. I can understand how it can be, because of your surroundings, but exactly for that reason I think it should be important to remember at the back of your head that you're biased and that this doesn't apply to young people everywhere.
TBH, this is how I am with the local Rroma population. I technically know that not all of them are swindlers and/or thieves, and I know a wonderful, intelligent person of that heritage from another forum, but in real life I still am biased because of the ones that live in my city behind the market. This has been an example of bias in work.

I don't believe in that. I'm also very, very old fashioned in that I don't believe in children then marriage.
.....
I was taught abstinence, but my personal belief was that if you care very deeply for someone, you shouldn't be afraid to have sex with them. We had mandatory Sexual Health classes from sixth grade up, until I graduated, so we were taught responsibility in school (and I was taught it at home).

And those are your opinions, which you can apply to you own life. I'll comment with my stance on these a bit later.

Judging from the things I keep hearing about Sex Ed in many places across USA, you should consider yourself somewhat lucky that you have been somewhat taught things. Because a lot of parents consider it the responsibility of the school to teach their kids everything, which, frankly, is stupid.
So you can't always blame the teenager for being incredibly misinformed - like someone posted on the DC forum Abortion thread (from which I got to know a LOT of reality check lessons over the years), it's not uncommon for crisis centers to have girls come in, who thought that you can't get pregnant if you have sex on a Sunday, or in a bathtub, or standing up, or if you're not married.

Anyway, that's kind-of besides the point.
I still think that people should try to get as much possibly important information for themselves, if there's no other way. And that if you have that information and still choose to disregard it and fuck around with no protection whatsoever, then I WILL judge you.

Now, as for marriage and/or sex... When I was much younger, I used to think that you shouldn't have children outside of wedlock and/or you shouldn't have sex outside a loving relationship... but then I started to think and, looking around at other people's lives and my own... I realized that a lot of these things really don't matter that much on a general scale.

I believe that it's OK to have children as long as there's someone to take care and pay attention to them, as I've known people who have children both unmarried and married and, you know, it really doesn't bother me, as long as the parents behave like ones.
Yes, I think that sex in a loving relationship is awesome... but I also think that there's nothing wrong with having casual sex. My general attitude towards that is "be safe and have fun as long as there's mutual consent and it isn't hurting anybody".
Maybe I'm relatively lucky with the society in which I've spent my years in education, because I fail to see a correlation between sexual activity (within or without a relationship) and life achievement/intelligence/whatever. I've known both achievers and losers who are pretty much celibate, and I've known people who've been fucking around - safely - since adolescence, never gotten themselves or their partner(s) pregnant and have graduated Uni with good marks.

And this comes from someone who didn't start having sex quite a few years later than you did.

It's truly obscene the number of teenagers that got pregnant in my high school and have gone on to have more and work at McDonald's. If that's what they want to do with their lives and they're happy with that decision, then I do not judge them and I am happy that they're happy. But what bothers me the most is when I read about these girls that have two and three children (they're my age) and they complain that they never got to travel, they don't get to go out, they don't have any money.

So many girls in my graduating class have children now - and not all of them even know who the father is. Makes me want to move away to a mountain and never return

And this is exactly what I mean by taking the responsible route - if you can't care for a child, there's nothing shameful about aborting it. I guess, you can't always expect that everybody to have a brain... but, you know, slutshaming is easy, but I really don't think that we're in that century anymore where sex should be a shameful activity. Because it's really not like it's in your vicinity everywhere else.

Well, you'll be moving soon-ish, won't you?
In all honestly, I think that had you grown up in a bit of a different environment, or traveled around more, you might be a bit more compassionate about the subject.

[moondragon]

This discussion hasn't been posted in for a while, but I feel the need to join it anyways.

What does abortion mean to you?
It's removing an undeveloped organism from a pregnant female before it can enter the world. No more, no less. I hope no one is offended by my use of the word 'organism', but I don't want to call it a 'child' or 'human' because I feel that implies that it has feelings and can form thoughts.

Are you pro-choice? Pro-life?
I'm pro-choice.

What has influenced your decision?
Things I hear about on the news, things I've read online, and my own personal opinions are just a few of the things that influence my decision. I believe my opinions on religion and sex also influence it a lot. I'm not against under aged sex or pre-marrital sex, and I'm not religious. Therefore, I can understand that sometimes unplanned things happen and my opinions on the value of life may be different from others.

Are there any circumstances in which you believe abortion is wrong or should not be allowed?
No, I don't think there are any circumstances where it is 'wrong.' I do, however, think it's a litle rediculous if a teenager (or someone of any age, for that matter) gets pregnant at sixteen and has an abortion, then gets pregnant another six months later. If she's getting pregnant that often, she's probably not using protection and isn't being responsible.

What is your opinion on late term abortion?
Getting it done sooner in the pregnancy is probably the better option, but I don't see why it couldn't be done later.

Do you believe abortion is too common?
No, not at all. As long as it doesn't reach the point where people don't bother with protection anymore, I don't think it could become too common. Humans are way over populated, and abortions could help reduce the number of mouths to feed. It might have not been a wonderful invention, but we have the technology so there's no point in forgetting it exists. Use what you have for the good of man kind.

Should the father have a say in the procedure?
That all depends on the situation. If the father isn't involved at all, then no he shouldn't. He wouldn't be in the child's life if it were born, so why should he get to have a say in its birth? If the couple is still together or married, I think it should be discussed before the women has it done. It's always a good idea so no one decides to sue or anything like that. I don't think a couple should break up or file for devorce over something like abortion. However, the ultimate decision should rest in the women because she's the one who has to give birth.

Should minors be allowed abortions without parental notification or consent?
Yes, always. I realize it could lead to later conflict, and it isn't always good to keep such major things from your parents, but sometimes it needs to be done. What if the family is strongly against abortion? Should a teenager have to worry about a child for the rest of her life JUST because her parents have a biased opinion? Also, sometimes parents could kick their child out for getting pregnant or beat them. If a teenager is seriously too afraid or ashamed to go to their parents, they should have someone else to go to. Getting pregnant shouldn't be a death sentence to a teenager.

What do you think of adoption as an alternative?
That should be up to the mother, honestly. If I were pregnant and didn't want the child, I would choose an abortion over adoption any day. Firstly, I wouldn't have to go through the pain of childbirth. Second, why should the child have to go through the adoption system? It isn't always wonderful, with foster parents and all. Plus, it isn't fair for a child to have to spend their life thinking their mother didn't want them. Why put a living being through pain when it could be avoided all together?

The use of birth control to prevent pregnancy in the first place?
Birth control is ALWAYS the better option. You shouldn't avoid it just because abortions exist. The thing is, birth control doesn't always work.