Trigger Warning: Sexual harassment/assault

[AnArtfulDodger]

Well, I actually don't know all the specifics because I'm not a criminal law expert, but I do know that consent is legally defined as, "the voluntary agreement of the complainant to engage in the sexual activity in question." If someone says 'no', or if they simply do not say anything, it is considered a crime for their partner to keep going.

As punishments go, we don't have the death penalty here (and I'm very glad about that), but rape is considered a very serious crime. People can serve a very long time in jail for it, depending on their age and the crime itself.

[MistyoC]

There are many instances where drunkenness is not considered a sign of consent. Most tattoo artists I know will not work on a drunk client. Doctors will not perform non-life-saving procedures on impaired patients. Responsible business persons will not enter into a contract with a drunk person and there are legal ways out of a contract if one can prove one was drunk while signing. It is only reasonable for drunkenness would also not be considered consent to having sex.
I had a boyfriend who would take me out and get me drunk so that I'd have sex with him. I was 16 and he was 20, so drunken consent was not the only issue. Even had I been sober he was breaking the law, doubly for providing me with alcohol. Some would argue that after the first time, I knew what he was likely to do, so I was consenting by just going out with him. Under that same logic, are battered persons who return to their abusers consenting to being hit? No. After I quit drinking I regretted many of the things I did to get alcohol.

[mulan]

" If someone says 'no', or if they simply do not say anything, it is considered a crime for their partner to keep going.

As punishments go, we don't have the death penalty here (and I'm very glad about that), but rape is considered a very serious crime. People can serve a very long time in jail for it, depending on their age and the crime itself.

hmmm..............yeah, you are right.

[GrowlingCupcake]

If a drunk person got taken advantage of in a different way, say they were walking home and got mugged, nobody would be saying that it was their fault for being mugged just because they were drunk. The mugger was the one who saw that someone wasn't terribly alert or responsible, and took the opportunity to commit a crime. It is the same with sex. If somebody is drunk enough to make poor decisions about his or her body, then it should be apparent to others. If someone takes advantage of that state, they are harming someone who is not of sound mind to fight back. If the person taking advantage is also drunk, that would be the person we hold accountable, because they have acted to put another person in harm's way.

Of course I wouldn't say they deserved being mugged. They weren't going around saying "I would like you to mug me" (I hope). Moreover, mugging is a crime, regardless of consent. Sex isn't. Sex is often NOT a crime. When has mugging ever been not a crime? I just do not think someone wanting sex while drunk should automatically mean rape, even if they sober up and wish they hadn't had sex.

So if both people are drunk and both want and try to start sex, who do you blame?

There is a difference between going to a party, passing out, and being raped and going out, getting drunk, finding someone you like, going home with them and having sex because you want it. There is also a difference between the latter and someone getting you drunk in order to rape you. I think intent should matter. I can't think of any case of rape that I know/have heard of where the rapist didn't intend to rape/force the person (not stopping when someone changes their mind/says no would fall under this too), whether planned or spur of the moment.

@Intempestivity

If you read the rest, it says "highly intoxicated". That's more than just drunk. How intoxicated is highly? Passed out? Then yeah, no consent can be given. So drunk they can barely stand? In that case, I would consider it being taken advantage of. If someone wasn't drinking heavily, then would you say it is fine based on what you quoted? They make the distinction of drinking heavily.

"The responsibility for misinterpretation when either party has been drinking falls on the initiator of further sexual activity. "

So if the drunk person initiates sex it is perfectly fine? Even if they wish they did not have sex when they sober up?

Cornell puts responsibility on BOTH people. Including the drunk one.

https://www.rainn.org/get-information/t ... as-it-rape
"I was drunk or they were drunk - does that mean it isn't rape?

Alcohol and drugs are not an excuse – or an alibi. The key question is still: did you consent or not? Regardless of whether you were drunk or sober, if the sex is nonconsensual, it is rape. However, because each state has different definitions of “nonconsensual”, please contact your local center or local police if you have questions about this. (If you were so drunk or drugged that you passed out and were unable to consent, it was rape. Both people must be conscious and willing participants.)"

^ Consent plays a role here.

http://www.unh.edu/sharpp/wildcats-get-consent

"A person cannot give consent if they are incapacitated by drugs and or alcohol. A person that is passed out or is blackout drunk, legally cannot give consent. Having sex with a person that is passed out or black out drunk is sexual assault. Having sex with a person that is heavily intoxicated is a violation of the UNH sexual misconduct policy and is illegal under the NH law.

Here are some obvious signs that a person has drank too much alcohol and can no longer make a clear decision about giving consent.

They weeble. They wobble. They fall down.
If a person cannot stand or utilize their own legs because of how much alcohol they have drank is too drunk to give consent. If a person's speech is so slurred that you can’t understand their words, they make no sense or they are having a hard time communicating, than this person is too drunk to have sex with.
A person that can’t focus their eyes, can't comprehend or is very confused about what is going on around them is too drunk to have sex with.
A person that has urinated or defecated or vomited on themselves is too drunk to have sex with.
A person that is passed out or sleeping is too drunk to have sex with."

http://www.safercampus.org/blog/2010/07 ... d-consent/

I like that it acknowledges drunk sex. The things that it says mark it as non-consent are things which do not fall under what I spoke about and they realise that things like "checking in with [your partner], making sure they are enthusiastically, affirmatively consenting to whatever you’re doing together" do not make it rape.

Let me put it another way. If someone got drunk and had sex with someone sober. Woke up, was perfectly fine with the sex. Is that rape? Because by the definitions coming out on the thread, it is. If you define sex while drunk as rape, even without coercion, force or non-consent, then that would be rape. I honestly feel we are defining rape much too broadly and we're tarring situations and people that we should not with it. I much prefer the definitions in the sites I am looking at and the articles (scholarly) that I am reading. They draw a line between rape/non-consent under intoxication and drunken sex.

How many of us would then be considered rapists or victims because we had sex we enjoyed, didn't regret and did consent to but someone was drunk/high during it?

Is it only rape then if someone goes to the police? Clearly not because we realise people have been raped even when the police might dismiss them or even if they do not tell anyone.

The reason why I also mentioned if she s drunk it is not consent is for the protection of the other.
If the person is very drunk and consents to sex, but is to drunk to remember and gets pregnant. Than it is very easy to yell you've been raped on that party. Good luck proving it was consent and not just passed out.

This I can understand. I honestly doubt people go around crying rape all the time. I think rape statistics are much lower than they actually are since many do not report it. But in a situation where there is no intent to rape, no forcing, no saying no, I think this would protect BOTH individuals. It can save someone from being put into a situation where they might be considered a rapist. It could save someone from being pregnant or needing to get an abortion or needing to pay for and raise the child (if they forget condoms/aren't on the pill/can't get morning after). It could save someone potentially embarrassing situations ("oh fuck, I had sex with them. How am I going to look them in the face during work?"). And it could cut down on any situation where someone might regret it.

More and more, with the wide definitions, too many things become rape. I use prescription (and non-prescription) medications that slow my brain function. If I have sex on that, would my partner have raped me? When I was higher than a kite on my painkillers/muscle relaxants, was that rape every time we had sex?

Another scenario: A person wants to have sex. They are nervous about it. This is a fairly normal occurrence. A lot of people are nervous about such a thing, a lot of people want to have a good date out. They have a few drinks during dinner. They're not falling down drunk, they're awake and can make decisions about whether or not they want dessert and can continue a witty repartee. They wouldn't drive but they're not heavily intoxicated. No one drugged anyone, no one was forced. Sex was implied or outright stated throughout the night. Maybe they started playing footsie. But basically, they gave no indication of not following through their plan - to have sex. While in their home, they were still interested in sex. While having sex, they were happy to have sex.

Are they then being raped if they went into it wanting sex and kept saying yes to sex?

Let me make it clear: I do not condone rape. I do not think an intoxicated person should be raped. I do not think drinking means a person deserves it. I do not think getting someone drunk in order to get them to consent should be allowed. I just think we - people outside the situation - call rape too much.

There is a difference between drunk sex and rape. And this is what I am trying to make clear. Drunk sex is not always rape.

Edit: Also, I find it kind of discomforting how many of these sites make the women the victim. This is just pushing the idea that men can't be raped.

[Intempestivity]

@GrowlingCupcake, you made no distinction in your original post about being mildly intoxicated or heavily intoxicated--you stated that if a person is drunk and has sex and regrets it the next day, they could claim rape and should instead be held accountable for their actions. To me, the word drunk refers to heavy intoxication. I personally would not consider myself drunk if I'd been out for a pint and got a bit giggly, but was still in control of my faculties. I would consider myself drunk if I was heavily intoxicated and was slurring my speech and could not stand up straight. I believe that people in that state are not able to consent, and the law agrees with me.

You also stated in your first post that if there is no coercion, there is no rape. I'm sorry, but I believe taking advantage of someone in a vulnerable state, whether the perpetrator got them in to that state or not, is rape, and it's not coercion if some scumbag sees a person falling over drunk and decides take advantage of it. The intoxicated person may or may not say yes, but they're not in a fit state of mind to make that decision. Judging by your latest post, you agree with that statement, however, you did not make that distinction in your first post.

[GrowlingCupcake]

@GrowlingCupcake, you made no distinction in your original post about being mildly intoxicated or heavily intoxicated--you stated that if a person is drunk and has sex and regrets it the next day, they could claim rape and should instead be held accountable for their actions. To me, the word drunk refers to heavy intoxication. I personally would not consider myself drunk if I'd been out for a pint and got a bit giggly, but was still in control of my faculties. I would consider myself drunk if I was heavily intoxicated and was slurring my speech and could not stand up straight. I believe that people in that state are not able to consent, and the law agrees with me.

You also stated in your first post that if there is no coercion, there is no rape. I'm sorry, but I believe taking advantage of someone in a vulnerable state, whether the perpetrator got them in to that state or not, is rape, and it's not coercion if some scumbag sees a person falling over drunk and decides take advantage of it. The intoxicated person may or may not say yes, but they're not in a fit state of mind to make that decision. Judging by your latest post, you agree with that statement, however, you did not make that distinction in your first post.

Drunk is a range of values. It includes what you mentioned, i.e. tipsy is considered a synonym for drunk. For me, I go by the law for such things (what is used to determine DUI); generally that's a blood alcohol content of about 0.08. This can be 3-5 drinks for most people and that's a large range of drunkeness. Some people might be falling over, some people might not even be tipsy. Before I got on my meds, it took well over 5 drinks to get me buzzed and I know many for whom it is the same. But then I live in the midwest where people drink a lot xD

Right now, one or two drinks would put me above the legal BAC but it wouldn't make me heavily drunk.

I have never been drunk to the point of slurring my speech or not being able to stand upright but I was heavily intoxicated. I was still in full control of my faculties but I was drunk and if I had been driving a car and hit someone, I would be in jail. I have a friend who you would not know is drunk apart from his penchant for stealing socks.

^^ Just explaining what I mean by drunk so you can see that I do not just mean people who are falling over drunk or black out drunk. I feel that many people who are drunk are thus perfectly capable of giving consent or initiating an act they honestly want to be part of.

I figured it was understood that falling over drunk or being unconscious is not one of the cases I mentioned but clearly that was not stated well enough. There are cases when people are outright not able to make a decision and if someone has sex with them then, they are clearly taking advantage.

I just want to ensure that the people who feel drunkenness removes ability to consent understand there is a difference between drunk sex and rape. This is not clear in the posts of people who have said that. It's sort of all or nothing. The law makes that distinction even though it makes it harder for them to determine whether or not it was rape or drunken sex.

You obviously see that difference so that's nice; we're clearly on the same page.

------------------------------------------------

Something more than a little appalling. Apparently this is the cover of a book being used to teach sex education to 17-18 year olds in Singapore:


The book also used stereotypes to state that women are not direct - if a woman says X, she really means Y. So if a woman says "no", clearly she must mean "yes". It wasn't said outright apart from the cover but it the stereotypes support that thought.

Other choice bits:
"A guy can't not want to look. Even decent guys in great dating and marriage relationships struggle with a desire to visually linger on and fantasise about the female body. What she's wearing therefore matters, lest she becomes an "eye magnet" that cannot be avoided."

"Many guys feel neither the ability nor the responsibility to stop the sexual progression with you. Guys need your help to protect both of you. In fact, if you want to be able to stop it, it's safest to not even start."

From what I understand, they're not trying to say it's okay to rape or that men are hormones on legs and will rape anyone they see. But they really aren't doing a good job with sex education.

Other bits of it are stereotypical and very generalised plus the workshop it was in was not accommodating of diversity, questioning, etc. but those are not to do with rape.

I just don't understand how anyone thought that cover was a good idea.

[Tekla]

What are your thoughts on rape itself?

It's a crime that needs to be taken far more seriously with mandatory jail time or something for rapists - men AND women. Our justice system here in the US is not always good for justice in rape cases. I think it's sad that people are advised to yell "fire" instead of "rape" because it's not taken seriously enough.

I think people who lie about being raped should also have mandatory consequences. People who lie about it make it so much worse for actual victims.

And for convicted rapists, sex offender registration for life. No exceptions.

Do you believe people 'ask for it' when they dress provocatively?

People should be able to wear what they want and still feel safe. No one is ever asking to be assaulted, no matter what they're wearing/doing.

That said if you wear a low cut top and shorts so short they could be classified as underwear, you ARE asking for people to look. It baffles me how people can wear tight clothes, show off a bunch of cleavage, etc and then get offended at people just for looking.

What is consent to you?

A yes.

I feel like instead of saying "yes I want to have sex" or something, people should instead say 'no' as soon as they become uncomfortable. A lot of times a yes to sex is implied/left unsaid (heat of the moment, things like that). And it should be stressed that no means no. No does not mean yes, no means no.

I don't think drunkenness can be counted as consent. Being drunk astronomically increases the incidence of bad decisions. That said not every instance of drunken sex is rape.

Do you believe men can be raped too?

Yes, they can. Unfortunately the justice system is even less kind to male rape victims because of gender biases/stereotypes. I feel bad for men who are raped by their partners because they're even less likely than women to get justice.

Do you think there's a way to stop rape?

I don't really think so. Bad people will always exist.

Any other thoughts?

Rape really needs to be taken more seriously and the idea that men can't be raped needs to disappear.

I think it's sad that so many rapes go unreported, largely because of societal stigma against rape, and it's even worse for men. It's especially sad that in some areas rape is even tied in with individual and familial honor and marriageability - and that being raped can even culminate in further violence on or murder of the victim.

No one should be ashamed of being a victim. It's not the victim's fault, and this needs to be stressed in every nook and cranny of society.

It also needs to be stressed that no means NO. No does not mean yes; I really don't know where people got that nonsense idea.

@Growlingcupcake:
That book, ugh. That second quote there really gets me, too...men aren't unstoppable sex machines.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Something else that irritates me about the topic of rape is media that portrays rape and tries to portray it as normal. Like the 50 shades series. Stuff like this is only detrimental to making and keeping rape a serious issue (as it should be) - it wasn't that long ago that things like marital rape weren't considered possible.

[pugspie101]

I cannot use the form, sorry, but im just going to speak out
I think that rape usaully happens when a person dosen't feel loved, and so they really are desparate for it.
No. People dress in different ways to express their style.
i do not know what consent means, sorry i dont hear much about this topic.
Yes. Again, maybe the woman don't feel loved or dont think theyll ever get a husband
no, not really. There will always be crime on earth, in my opinion

[GrowlingCupcake]

I cannot use the form, sorry, but im just going to speak out
I think that rape usaully happens when a person dosen't feel loved, and so they really are desparate for it.
No. People dress in different ways to express their style.
i do not know what consent means, sorry i dont hear much about this topic.
Yes. Again, maybe the woman don't feel loved or dont think theyll ever get a husband
no, not really. There will always be crime on earth, in my opinion

Just to clarify, you maybe think women who don't feel loved rape others because they are desperate?

Consent means agreement, permission. If you consent to something, you agree to it and give permission for it.

[Tekla]

I think that rape usaully happens when a person dosen't feel loved, and so they really are desparate for it.

Yes. Again, maybe the woman don't feel loved or dont think theyll ever get a husband

I want to address these comments, because as you say you are under-educated on this topic.

No one is desperate to be raped. A rape is a violent sexual assault that results in mental trauma and often physical trauma:

Effects of Rape

Physical Injuries

100% of completed rapes, 39% of attempted rapes, and 17% of sexual assaults against females result in injured victims.
33% of victims sustain minor physical injuries (bruises and chipped teeth).
5% of victims sustain major injuries (broken bones and gunshot wounds).
61% of victims sustain undetermined injuries.
Only around 36% of injured victims receive medical care.
82% of those cared for use hospital services.
55% use physician services.
17% use dental services.
19% use ambulatory / paramedic services.
17% use physical therapy services.

Mental Health

Survivors of sexual assault are:

3 times more likely to suffer from depression
6 times more likely to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder
13 times more likely to abuse alcohol
26 times more likely to abuse drugs
4 times more likely to contemplate suicide

It's not about the victim feeling unloved (while the vast majority of rape victims are female, ~10% of rape victims are male) or desperate to get a spouse. It's about power and control on the part of the perpetrator.

Rapists don't love or intend to marry their victims: they intend to exercise power and control over them, they intend to cause harm, and they hate their victims. Also, a majority of rapes are committed by someone the victims knows:

The Offenders

Almost 2/3 of sexual assaults are committed by someone known to the victim.

23% of rapists are an intimate
3% are another relative
38% are a friend or acquaintance
31% are a stranger
6% are unknown
Only about 6% of rapists ever serve a day in jail.

There is no love or anything even remotely close involved in a rape. Trauma - both physical and mental - from a rape can persist for a lifetime.

Many rape victims do not report rapes (~60% of rapes go uneported):

Sexual assault is one of the most underreported crimes, with an average of 39% being reported to the police each year.

When victims of rape, attempted rape, and sexual assault did not report the crime to the police, the most often cited reasons were:

Rape

Personal matter (23.3%)
Fear of reprisal (16.3%)
Police biased (5.8%)

Attempted Rape

Personal matter (16.8%)
Fear of reprisal (11.3%)
Protect offender (9.9%)

Completed and attempted sexual assault

Personal matter (25.3%)
Reported to different official (12.4%)
Fear of reprisal (11.3%)

Social stigma undoubtedly also contributes not just to underrporting to an authority but also to not telling anyone at all, even family or friends.

The percentage of unreported rape/sexual assault is likely even higher among male victims due to even greater social stigma but I'm having difficulty finding statistics.

Society is becoming increasingly aware of male rape. However, experts believe that current male rape statistics vastly under-represent the actual number of males age 12 and over who are raped each year. Rape crisis counselors estimate that while only one in 50 raped women report the crime to the police, the rates of under-reporting among men are even higher (Brochman, 1991).

[second source]

The justice system also pretty much sucks with regard to rape. "Only about 6% of rapists ever serve a day in jail." And this is a US statistic - that's painful and disappointing on every level. So even if victims do report, they're often in for a harrowing ride from the justice system, which can include them reliving the incident.

Sources: http://www.rccmsc.org/resources/get-the-facts.aspx
http://www.svfreenyc.org/survivors_factsheet_38.html

~~~~~~~

Keep in mind that all that above is just US statistics. Here's a bit of worldwide perspective:

Map graphics from womanstats.org that pertain to female rapes from over 150 countries around the world:
Weighted international rape scale, scaled 2011: http://womanstats.org/data3/images1/wei ... pe2011.jpg

Prevalence of rape, scaled 2011: http://womanstats.org/data/images1/prev ... mlogo2.jpg

Strength of barriers to reporting rape, scaled 2011: http://womanstats.org/data/images1/stre ... mlogo2.jpg

Inclusivity of laws concerning rape, scaled 2011: http://womanstats.org/data/images1/incl ... mlogo2.jpg

Combined scale of the prevalence and sanction of rape and sexual assault of women, scaled 2011: http://womanstats.org/data3/images1/com ... pe2011.jpg

All are from: http://womanstats.org/newmapspage.html

i do not know what consent means, sorry i dont hear much about this topic.

Consent (definition via google):
permission for something to happen or agreement to do something.

give permission for something to happen.